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The Penta Podcast Channel is home to all of Penta's podcasts, including the Macrocast and What's At Stake: A Penta Podcast. The Macrocast, produced by Penta and Markets Policy Partners, features weekly insight and analysis on the latest macroeconomic trends. What's at Stake: a Penta Podcast features in-house experts and often special guests for analysis on the biggest issues shaping business and public policy.
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Penta pop: The touring economy
In this episode of What's At Stake, hosts Bryan DeAngelis and Kevin Madden analyze the magnetism of live music. They unpack how touring has emerged as the dominant revenue stream for musicians, exemplified by the prominence of Taylor Swift's Eras Tour and the nostalgia of an upcoming Oasis tour.
Since live shows returned post-COVID, the rush for tickets has been frantic, with social media amplifying both the excitement and frustration of fans. They dive into the huge demand for ticket access and how platforms like Spotify are revolutionizing music consumption and concert access.
Tune in this week as they talk about how these shared experiences continue to unite fans and some of their favorite recent concerts.
Welcome to this week's episode of what's at Stake. We're your hosts. Brian DeAngelis, a partner here at Penta, joined by Kevin.
Kevin Madden:And I'm Kevin Madden, a senior partner at Penta.
Bryan DeAngelis:And Kevin, this is one of your specialties. I'm going to say but we're going to do the Penta Goes Pop again.
Bryan DeAngelis:On this week's episode episode we're going to look at the music economy, now financially dominated by touring that. We just kind of got inspired over the nft article a week or so ago about the oasis and taylor swift's eras tour. These are big tours that are starting to have a big impact on the economy and lots of other things, so I thought this would be a fun one to dive into and discuss some more. One of the things in the FT article that jumped out at me, both as a maybe a fan of music and studying the economy here at Penta a lot.
Bryan DeAngelis:I think it was called the Bowie effect. David Bowie predicted over 20 years ago that touring would become the most important part of an artist's revenue, way more than album sales. And 20 years ago was before we had Spotify and anything else. But we have seen in the last couple of years just whether it's a huge current day pop star like Taylor Swift or I don't know, we're going to date ourselves but a legacy 90s star like Oasis. You know huge demand and you know attention and just they do a lot for the music economy and they make a I think, a ton of money off this.
Kevin Madden:It's interesting too that it was the Bowie effect, because, you know, if there's one thing that we all sort of remember and like, I didn't I obviously I was.
Kevin Madden:I was a fan of Bowie in the late Bowie stage, not the earlier stage, but, like the early stage, bowie was the most technologically advanced artist.
Kevin Madden:Right, he was the one who was much better at thinking of concept albums and then marketing an entire persona, and then marketing an entire persona, and then all of the money opportunities or financial opportunities that came with marketing that persona like Ziggy Stardust or like you know. You can imagine what it was like trying to get like Ziggy Stardust merchandise back in the day, right, and also like, yeah, just the technological advances here that you would have thought it would have been less about touring and it would have been much more about the digital experience, the technology that was going to be able to create new audiences with new sounds and new artists who might have been sort of kind of kept away or never really had a chance to break out because of record company politics back then, right, and radio station politics and instead that the platform democratization would have been what Bowie was predicting. So it was very interesting to see that his, his prescience actually had to do with coming back to the roots.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yeah, and it is a good point thinking about the history of it. I mean I I was raised on the Beatles. You know early career was just album after album but a lot of touring right Beatlemania fans kind of going nuts, passing out. And then where their career got really interesting, at least to me musically, was when they just gave up touring and they got into the studio and they started experimenting like Sgt Pepper's and Abbey Road and you see that to your point Bowie, then Queen, then Pink Floyd, these big concept type things, and then probably sometime in the 80s we got back to like arena rock and those big shows. And now we're in this Spotify streaming era where it seems like the show is the big driver again.
Kevin Madden:And you think about it too. The Beatles are so influential on so many other artists, Like I've read that. By the way, did you read that book that I recommended to you? Graham Nash's biography.
Bryan DeAngelis:I'm halfway through.
Kevin Madden:I made a big chunk of it, so one of the scenes in there where you know you have David Crosby, like bringing Sgt Pepper Lonely Hearts.
Bryan DeAngelis:Club.
Kevin Madden:Band like the actual, like debut record and probably copious amounts of marijuana into the Laurel Canyon house for everybody to hear it. And then just everybody sitting there mesmerized and then thinking like this is the next frontier to push. On, right, the Beatles of now set the standard for everybody else. And then how much it became about recording. And then how much it came about, uh, you know, pushing these concept albums or creating their. Everybody wanted to create that album and and it moved away a little bit, and that was at a time where performance were all performances were more geared towards festivals yes, and the festivals like you know woodstock and altamont and um and all these other ones that sort of kind of came out of that.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yeah, yeah, you see it in that book. It's, it's, you know, csny with the stones and everybody. You know it was these big things and we're in a totally different spot. I mean, we'll get into Taylor Swift and Oasis, but even now I feel like everybody's going to Vegas to see the the dead on the uh ball there and and you know residencies.
Kevin Madden:it's like this is where the driver is yeah, I'm genuinely surprised in the sense that I really thought with, like, there are so many more you like, if you like a Pacifica, you're going to love Heinz, right, which is these two very like small bands. I'm I'm actually probably, you know, putting people onto two, two new bands that they've probably never heard of, and it's the same thing too Like, okay, well, if you're listening to a boy genius, okay, you're going to like Haim, right. So I would have expected that people would have been starting to listen to more on Spotify and discovering a whole bunch of new artists and, as a result, that would open up financial opportunities and, you know, artist opportunities because of that. And instead, I think what we have to really look at is, like, the post-COVID pent-up demand for just the live experience, the live performance, and I think that I remember during lockdown, I said that, like man, I can't wait to go to my first concert and think about how many the Gigaton tour was basically canceled, right, and how many tours were canceled and how many artists had their lives disrupted because they didn't have this ability to go and tour.
Kevin Madden:And then, like the emphasis on the experience and the emphasis on artists going out there and reconnecting with their fans has just it's carried over all the way through right here to 2024. So it's been a good, solid four years and I think that's a lot of what's driving it. I know it's what's driving me. And and then I think you look at the experience of the heiress tour and how people recognize like they don't even have to go to the actual concert to have an experience right Like the secondary market of the Taylor Swift experience, right.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yes, yeah, that's a big part of it too, yeah, so, uh, you're, you're familiar with this, but I went on a little concert bender about a week or so which, by the way I had, I had a big part.
Kevin Madden:Well, actually I should say Mark, our friend Mark Postenbach, yeah.
Bryan DeAngelis:But it started with Pearl Jam. I went to Springsteen the next day, but that Sunday, to your point, I went uh down on the wharf to a Taylor Swift sing-along with my seven-year-old.
Kevin Madden:Really, it was just, you know, $30 ticket, not a $3,000 ticket. Can I ask you, how do you now have tinnitus after that weekend?
Bryan DeAngelis:Yes, a little bit, yeah, yeah, it's definitely yeah.
Kevin Madden:Cause now I had earplugs.
Bryan DeAngelis:I'm wearing the earplugs For our listeners.
Kevin Madden:I had the earplugs in the entire time during the Pearl Jam concert.
Kevin Madden:I tried to be a tough guy, but and I took it out for like maybe five seconds just to see, like, what is the rest of this audience experiencing. And wow, that was very, very loud. Yes, and I don't know how your head wasn't ringing like the next day. Yeah, your head wasn't ringing like the next day. Yeah, it still is, but yeah. So I mean I'd love to talk a little bit about the Pearl Jam experience, because I know you and I are both fans, but I didn't get tickets to Pearl Jam. I tried, right, right, I couldn't get tickets. I was a part of the queue and, like you know, I was somewhat insulted by that, but I don't, I didn't hold it against the band, but that just that just goes to show demonstrate the level of demand out there.
Bryan DeAngelis:And not even demand. But the hoops you have to go through now, some of which I think is really good for artists from a financial and economic standpoint, no-transcript. But you saw Taylor Swift do that, you know. Obviously we've all familiar with the controversy around her first set of tickets. But even Oasis now, like I don't think they did the verified fan thing, I think you know, and you saw a lot of complaints of like the 20-year-old that knows Wonderwall beating out that guy. I saw that quote. I saw that quote.
Kevin Madden:That's how I kind of felt a little bit of Pearl Jam, oh great, like somebody who's just like a new Pearl Jam fan, because my sons are Pearl Jam fans.
Kevin Madden:Like I think that's the osmosis of like my playlists in the car. The osmosis of like my playlists in the car they are. They now know all the songs and they would love to see them. But I think that's one of the things, too, where it's like, yeah, somebody out there who I've been waiting 20 years now to see Pearl Jam and uh, and I can't believe, how dare somebody else who's like a brand new fan get to jump?
Bryan DeAngelis:in.
Kevin Madden:Now I have that for like two seconds and I never hold it against the band, but um, yeah. But here's another thing. I think the social media experience for a lot of audiences is a big part of the FOMO. Like, I think, when you see on your Instagram feed or your Facebook or Twitter, like people that are at a concert experiencing the live event, you know it's coming to your neighborhood next and you see how good the show is, there is a greater interest in being a part of that. You know why? Because you want to fill your feed, yes, your social media feed with you know Eddie Vedder singing alive.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yep, yeah, I got Baltimore Springs Dean tickets and I was dying watching my Instagram feed the week before of everyone who got nationals DC tickets and I was like I'll be there in a week, but I think it makes people left out. Yeah, do you see?
Kevin Madden:tickets and I was like I'll be there in a week, but I don't feel like I'm feeling left out. Yeah, I think everybody wants to tag the location they want to and I think they also just appreciate the live experience being shared by everybody else as a result. And so it's less about you know back then I think that maybe the first version of social media mix tapes right you make a mix tape, you send it. Somebody's like hey, you got it. Like I had this in college.
Bryan DeAngelis:They're like I had a training bootleg.
Kevin Madden:I had a john cougar mellon camp. That's why I call like that's how old I am. I call him john cougar mellon camp. Now he still goes by john mellon yeah but I had a john cougar mellon camp mix tape that like made its way around campus. They're like you gotta get a copy of madden's john coug Mellencamp tape Mixtape. It's great, you got to get it, yeah.
Bryan DeAngelis:We'll have to bring that into Penta for the 9.30 stop.
Bryan DeAngelis:For sure. Going back to the effect of Spotify, though I'm doing this at least, and I'm guessing you are too, both for those big acts and small acts. So, just like you, without Spotify I would never listen to JJ Wilde and some other bands that I've started listening to, but I find myself going to way more 930, concerts, anthem, like smaller venues where these artists are coming through, where, if I had heard them on the radio 10 years ago, I probably wouldn't have been following them on social media and trying to buy tickets. So it's the touring part of it is helping both that big star like Taylor Swift as well as the kind of up-and-comers.
Kevin Madden:Yeah, and I think it's given a lot of artists, particularly the up-and-comers, an opportunity for a full-scale marketing push. Because, think about it, when you listen to the song or you pull up one of these obscure artists on Spotify, you find out immediately where they're playing near you, because they've got a GPS locator on you and they know that there's a that they're playing at the Anthem soon. Right, I get it all the time for Waxahachie, I know, is playing the Merriweather Pavilion. How do I know that? Off the top of my head, because it keeps prompting me on Spotify.
Kevin Madden:But so not only can I find out when they're playing and I can just wear it the ease of a click, buy the tickets, show up there to see them but I can also get the merchandise Like they have. There's options then to reach out to the merchandise department and purchase. This happened when I was at the Ryan Adams up at the Birchmere, or what's the one, yeah, what's the one up in Bethesda Is that the Birchmere?
Bryan DeAngelis:No, no, no, Birchmere is down near me in.
Kevin Madden:Arlington, I'm forgetting the name of it, but you know it was all very easy and the merchandise is, you know.
Kevin Madden:Yeah, you don't have to lug around the poster all day, no, you can just buy it right there on your phone and I think that is one of the things that you know if you ever go back. And one of the great documentaries was about the band Big Star. Big Star was every band's favorite band back in the 70s when they were first coming out. Alex Chilton and the members of Big Star were very influential for a lot of the 70s groups Big Star because their record company was no good at marketing and they were no good at promoting their tours and they were no good at getting them radio play. Nobody ever heard a big star and the documentary goes through this and it's like now there's a lot of bands that have had really good, strong opportunities to tour and and and promote shows and promote their music and find new fans just because of the ready availability of this marketing chain that's at their fingertips, versus having to wait for their record company to do it yeah, yeah Um wait for their record company to do it.
Kevin Madden:Yeah yeah, the FOMO piece too.
Bryan DeAngelis:I feel like is all COVID related, like we did miss this and you know, going back to the economics of it, I was talking to some folks in the retail industry over the past couple of days. You know so much money spent on goods when we were locked in our house, but we missed this stuff where now I feel like we're we're getting our full, whether it's vacations and what you're actually seeing is I know a ton of families that did vacations for Taylor Swift this summer. We're taking the kids to Berlin.
Kevin Madden:My sister, yeah, she went to Dublin and then Munich and, like we're anchoring it around the concert, yeah, you think that continues or you think that's a burnout for those burnout.
Kevin Madden:I think it does, but I will tell you I can only. I mean, I see what my sister does with her daughters for Taylor Swift, but then I also. I can only really attest to this through the lens of my own experience, which is I am willing to put up with a lot more friction to go to these shows now than I used to be, and I probably in this last four years probably saw more in those four years than I did in the previous 10, because I just don't think I ever want to give up that experience again of a live show. And how many of these are? I think it has to do with a lot of the fact that a lot of my favorite artists are getting old.
Bryan DeAngelis:I was just going to say how much of this is driven by nostalgia.
Kevin Madden:I think that's a big part of it, but it's the secondary economy that it then creates for these other bands. Because, you know, the National had Soccer Mommy open up for them and like nobody, I think a lot of people there were like who's opening for her? And I was like Soccer Mommy, like I haven't heard of her, and it's like well, now you have and now you're going to get a really good band. Same thing for the lab, you know, and, by the way, like for anybody who hasn't been to a national concert, like it's guys that look like me and Brian like 50 plus years old.
Kevin Madden:Like got the. Allbirds on the Peter Millar.
Bryan DeAngelis:For the record, not 50. Yet A lot of all right, well, a lot of sad suburban dads.
Kevin Madden:And then there's, like this younger female artist, soccer Mommy, and like you know, I think a lot of people are now she turned a lot of fans and so I think there'll be a secondary market effect, I think, for her and her music and her fans. So like, yeah, we're going to see the old guys that we always sort of knew and loved, but then we're getting into these new bands that are younger and are really bringing great new sounds to the market and creating opportunities for them.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yeah, with the exception of Taylor Swift. You are seeing this with slightly older bands. It's our generation that, whether it's coming into money or has that extra cash to go do a trip and see a band, I mean same with you. I used to see Pearl Jam when they came to Boston. Now I'm going to Louisville, I'm going to Jersey to see concerts. I'm willing to make a weekend out of it travel, and it's partly those bands I grew up with.
Kevin Madden:Like.
Bryan DeAngelis:Jane's Addiction maybe doesn't happen. We may not see Jane's Addiction again.
Kevin Madden:I was joking about this, by the way, the fact that I saw Pearl Jam and play and then in the very same weekend, jane's Addiction technically broke up. I said what year is it?
Bryan DeAngelis:It feels like is it?
Kevin Madden:1993? Jane's Addiction's breaking up and Pearl Jam's playing concerts Like um. But here's the other thing. Too is um. When was your first concert? How old were you when you went to your first big concert?
Bryan DeAngelis:Probably 14, 14. Okay, that's a pretty good young age.
Kevin Madden:Um, I was seven, I think I was 18. And I was like the summer, right before I went away to college and I went to see Don Henley at New Jersey Meadowlands, the old Brendan Byrne Arena.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yeah, and.
Kevin Madden:I think I swear that's where I got my first taste of tinnitus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, I couldn't hear for two weeks coming out of that thing, because I sat right next to the speakers.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yeah.
Kevin Madden:But I didn't have the experience where it was like my parents brought me. I think that's largely because my parents didn't listen to the same music that I did. But I listened to the same music as my sons and I would have loved to have brought my one son, colin, to Pearl Jam, but somebody took the other ticket.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yeah, yeah, that was me.
Kevin Madden:But I think here I'll get to my main point here is that I think this is a lot more of a generational shared experience now, where folks our age are going to be willing, like my sister, to go to a Taylor Swift concert with their daughters. I don't necessarily know if that was a kind of an anomaly back in previous generations, right, I don't think there were many people bringing their kids to Woodstock. There were people that had kids.
Bryan DeAngelis:Sure, yeah, Sure kids to Woodstock.
Kevin Madden:There were people that had kids that apparently gave birth at Woodstock but like not bringing their kids to Woodstock, not bringing their kids to see the who in Madison Square Garden in 1973. Right, you know. But now I think, because of the experiences, I think these, these venues are much more professional. They're much more safe. There's much safer. It's easier. There's easier to, easier to, you know, sort of, uh, you know, buy the tickets, uh, in bulk, and things like that.
Kevin Madden:You're not, you're not roaming around outside brendanburn arena trying to buy scalp tickets like which what we did again make a little weekend out of it yeah, and so I think you're introducing a whole new generation now to the, a new shared music experience, and that's that's where I think bowie was sort of uh kind of going going to. Which is that big shared experience.
Bryan DeAngelis:It's going to be what drives a lot of the uh, the new bands and new artists yeah, okay, I do have to correct the record because I know my father and mother listened to this podcast and I misunderstood your question. So we were an anomaly. My father's a big rock and roll guy.
Kevin Madden:So I saw.
Bryan DeAngelis:Paul McCartney, little Richard Ringo star in the all-star band Richie Havens. Those were all my first concerts. The first concert where my friends was 14.
Kevin Madden:Okay, okay, so I, if I were to correct the record on my end, it would be like I don't know if the wolf tones at Gaelic Park when I was nine with my parents counts, like you know.
Bryan DeAngelis:Yes, but you know, I guess Pearl Jam is my Paul McCartney, so he did take me to those and we're still doing it. We saw Foo Fighters in Fenway Park this summer with my father and my brother and I'm definitely more of a Foo Fighters fan than than both of them. But it's that shared experience and again made a weekend out of it in Boston, you know, went out for a nice day dinner, go to the show yeah, that's good. Where do you see kind of things headed in the music industry? Let's wrap up there, cause I I do think some of this is built up from COVID, as we've talked about. Some of this is big stars, a little bit of anomalies, but I don't think live shows go away. I think we still see this.
Kevin Madden:Yeah, I think it's the multilevel experience and I say this as a fan that really enjoys that part of it right, which is being able to click and send. I'm probably like you. I'm on like four or five text chains where with certain friends, I'm sharing songs that I heard like oh, I know my friend would love this song. And then or it's like hey, my crazier is just the greatest song ever and I'll send it to my brother and we'll send it to our mutual friend Alan and we'll sort of have a sort of shared back and forth about what other bands and what other songs like that, what would people like. So I think that that that part of it's really big. I think again, I'm, I'm you, and I talk probably once a week about like what shows are upcoming that we're going to be looking for. So I think that experience too.
Kevin Madden:But one of the things and this is kind of brings us back to the Oasis news, which is also driving a lot of different conversations about the music industry and how it makes its money is how that experience in the secondary market is experienced. And by that I mean would you? I know I would. I would pay money to watch Oasis play at Croke Park on my television, on my stream, on my phone. Like I would actually pay money that I know I'm not going to be able to go over to Wembley, I'm not going to be able to go to Ireland to see one of these shows, but that experience would be pretty cool to witness live, versus having to sort of hear about it through social media. So, like, is there going to be a pay-per-view or a streamed version of the concert experience? That then becomes the new.
Bryan DeAngelis:this has been my whole rap on. I'm shocked the metaverse didn't work more than it did, because there were a few concerts but they were, you know, modern day pop stars kind of thing. But I would strap on a headset to sit front row.
Kevin Madden:Yeah, or I would, I would park and I would buy one of those couple hundred bucks to still do it. Yeah, and you see these bars where the you know, the ones where they right now they're showing, like you know, foot, college football games and soccer games, where it's almost kind of the what do they call the sphere effect. Yes, yeah, like, imagine, like what would you pay?
Bryan DeAngelis:I would pay top dollar, I would probably I would pay the same almost as I pay for a ticket to be there. Yeah, and I'm sitting on my couch.
Kevin Madden:Yeah, right.
Bryan DeAngelis:But I'm sitting like I'm in the front row.
Kevin Madden:This was where I think it will come back. I think that's A because we have a little bit more disposable income and B because we're older and it's like hey, I want to see Oasis, but I need comfy seats and I want to be able to keep my all right.
Kevin Madden:I want to be able to not have to do two hours of driving from Baltimore to do it. So I think that's I'm interested. I'm surprised that they haven't done that. I remember, and I think the anecdote I told you on this was I remember when Holyfield fought George Foreman when I was in college, and we scrapped together whatever it was for the pay-per-view $75, which was a ton of money back then, yeah, and we must've had 125 people in this little cramped apartment, uh, off campus, uh, watching that fight, like literally sitting up on boxes on top of furniture on top of, and there were probably a hundred people in there who all scrapped together the 70. And then we, I think we charged $5, uh, a dollar, $5 at the door for a red solo cup for a red solo cup.
Bryan DeAngelis:But like that was great. I remember never. I remember every single punch of that fight. Yeah, um, and I mean again going back to nostalgia, I can't believe I'm gonna admit this, but I'm can't wait for tyson versus jake paul, and it's partly because my kids watch jake paul right and like think he's some legend.
Bryan DeAngelis:And I'm like I don't care if Mike Tyson's 60. Like this guy has no idea who the Mike Tyson I was I saw when I was growing up is, and if he's got half of that it's going to be quite funny.
Kevin Madden:By the way, should we take the over-under on how many Oasis shows there will actually be before they-.
Bryan DeAngelis:Well, I think this is you know how many have they?
Kevin Madden:announced they before they. Well, I think this is you know how many. Have they announced they've?
Bryan DeAngelis:announced eight or ten. They've announced, yeah, eight, because I think what six of them are in the US they're coming. Those are going on sale soon. But I was going to end on this point. You know it's, it's simple math, but the bands who have stuck together have really like you know, made bank off of this stuff.
Bryan DeAngelis:Pearl jam is such a following year after year they can do it. They've been doing it for 35 years. Yeah, jane's addiction coming back and they'll. They'll get their payday, but then it falls apart. Oasis, we'll see how long it lasts.
Kevin Madden:I will say about Pearl jam, to their credit. I know that they are making bank and I know that it is a lucrative, but they have put in how many years? 34 years right.
Bryan DeAngelis:This is 34. 35 next year yeah, 35, yeah.
Kevin Madden:Because that's why he's wearing the Peyton jersey 34. But I to their credit, they made every single effort to make that Baltimore show the best show you ever saw.
Bryan DeAngelis:They put in the work, yeah.
Kevin Madden:And you could tell they loved it. They did not leave the fans out. This was not a payday. This is them, I think, realizing how much they missed during COVID right, and then also just how much they love this and how far they've come. It really is a celebration of the music. It's a celebration of the show and that was a fantastic show because they put in the work. So I know we're talking about the economics of this and that's what drives a lot of whether or not we have these opportunities to see the bands we all love and the music. Lose your ticket, you're going to suffer some fans. The tickets are going to cost a lot more for Oasis on the first five shows, because I don't necessarily think they're going to make it past six.
Kevin Madden:Yeah that's right. Those two genuinely, genuinely, hate each other. Yes, yes.
Bryan DeAngelis:And that's hard from an economic standpoint.
Kevin Madden:So yeah, Well, let's leave it there.
Bryan DeAngelis:We can probably go on all day, but this was a fun one. Kevin, Thanks for joining.
Kevin Madden:Thanks for going. Penta Pop, yeah, I appreciate it.
Bryan DeAngelis:Love it and to all our listeners hope you enjoyed this one. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on X at PentaGRP and on LinkedIn at PentaGroup. I'm your host, brian, as always. Thanks for listening to what's at Stake.