This week on What's at Stake, hosts Penta Partner Bryan DeAngelis and Managing Director Ylan Mui are joined by Penta Senior Partner Kevin Madden for a special episode on President Biden's impassioned State of the Union address. They assess Biden's performance delivering a speech that spanned many different policy areas, including healthcare, the economy, and immigration—pivotal issues given this year's election. Bryan, Ylan, and Kevin also discuss how the President's adept handling of disruptors potentially temporality quelled age-related concerns as well as Katie Britt's rebuttal to Biden's speech.
But more than just recapping last night's speech, the group discusses an important consideration: Does the State of the Union actually move the needle on approval ratings? As the memory of last night fades, will voters remember Biden's fiery disposition, or will his age continue to worry voters on both sides of the political spectrum? Listen now!
This week on What's at Stake, hosts Penta Partner Bryan DeAngelis and Managing Director Ylan Mui are joined by Penta Senior Partner Kevin Madden for a special episode on President Biden's impassioned State of the Union address. They assess Biden's performance delivering a speech that spanned many different policy areas, including healthcare, the economy, and immigration—pivotal issues given this year's election. Bryan, Ylan, and Kevin also discuss how the President's adept handling of disruptors potentially temporality quelled age-related concerns as well as Katie Britt's rebuttal to Biden's speech.
But more than just recapping last night's speech, the group discusses an important consideration: Does the State of the Union actually move the needle on approval ratings? As the memory of last night fades, will voters remember Biden's fiery disposition, or will his age continue to worry voters on both sides of the political spectrum? Listen now!
Welcome to this week's episode of what's at Stake. We're your host, Brian DeAngelis, a partner here at Penta.
Speaker 2:And I'm Elon Mui, managing director at Penta.
Speaker 1:And we're here the morning after the State of the Union to talk with our colleague, kevin Madden, senior partner at Penta, who has served as a senior strategist and spokesman on at least three presidential campaigns and most notably the Romney for President campaign, of course, in 2012, and will help us break down how President Biden did last night. So, kevin, we're here Friday morning during what will be a pretty historic election year and there's a lot of unpack. We'll do a little recapping of last night's speech and we'll get into how effective moments like this are or maybe aren't for the president, but we'd love, maybe, to just start. How did you think Biden did yesterday?
Speaker 3:Well, look, I think first you have to always judge these on performance first and then substance second, I think let me get to the substance part first. I think if you read the speech and how the president and the White House were essentially sort of trying to micro-target their way to a better position with the voters, that are really going to make or break whether or not he has a second term.
Speaker 3:I think, it was very good, right, healthcare. The economy had to confront the issue of immigration because it's the number one issue in the country right now. You go down that entire recitation of the laundry list of policies. I'd give it like an A minus, like it was a very well crafted speech and I was reading it as he was giving it. But because I was reading it as he was giving it, I give it a C minus on the performance it was a very halting performance.
Speaker 3:He actually kind of stepped on some of the best lines, particularly at the end. I think at the beginning he reinforced some of people's concerns about the age issue, but then I'd say he got a lot stronger throughout the debate I'm sorry, throughout the speech, and he had some really good moments and I think oftentimes I think the performance is sort of atomized into these moments. You know where he was actually parrying some of the criticism and the cat calling from the audience and using it to his advantage. I was joking that it reminded me of like a stand up comic who's like finds the heckler and then just starts making fun of the heckler which in order to get a few laughs from the audience and I think the audience at home kind of gave him points for that.
Speaker 3:So, I'd give it like a C plus, you know, performance on the performance level. But then you know, my ultimate criticism is like, do these things really move the needle? And I don't believe they really do.
Speaker 1:Well, let's get to that in a minute. Atlan, I want to get your thoughts too. I mean, I would give this probably an A minus and part of it Overall, overall. And that's part of it, because politics is such an expectations game and everybody you know, I was talking to folks around the office but all week leading up to last night's speech it was like is this guy going to make it through the speech?
Speaker 1:The expectations were just like on the floor and he came out guns ablazing, nailed to your point, like three big campaign issues right away, going after January 6th jumping on abortion, which I know women's rights will be a huge issue, and then to the age question. You know that back and forth with some of the hecklers showed him still having that ability to be quick on his feet, to engage. I thought it was really impressive.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I agree with you. I mean, if he's being graded on a curve here, right then I would agree with you that he, you know, made in gotten a minus maybe, maybe even a, b, because the expectations were so low to begin with. And not only did he make it through the speech, first of all he took his time coming out for the speech because he was so busy glad handing taking selfies with members of Congress right. Doing that surprised face when he saw Marjorie Taylor Green with the Trump hat on. So he had a lot of moments the whole outfit she was.
Speaker 2:She was silent, so even just the walk up there. He was trying to show that he is someone who can last right and he gave a speech which was over an hour long and then he was glad handing again and stayed so late in the chamber that they actually turned the lights off right when he was still shaking hands, which I thought was kind of incredible.
Speaker 1:I didn't see that. Yeah, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know. So if he wanted to show that he's someone who has a candidate, who has staying power, I think he succeeded in that. I do agree with you. Agree with you, brian, that I thought it was unusual that he didn't start with the economy, which is what I would have expected. You know, we saw today that you have hiring in the past month of 275,000 jobs, surpassing expectations. The economy has been more resilient than everyone has expected, even economists, but it's not translating down to the voters, and so I thought that his decision to move the economy to essentially third place you know, his speech behind democracy and behind reproductive rights was a signal that this is not going to be a galvanizing issue, right At best.
Speaker 2:It's going to be an issue that doesn't cause him to lose voters. It's not going to shoot himself on the foot. You don't want to have a recession, obviously, that would be bad, but it's not something that's going to motivate people to turn out for him in November.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask you both about this point because I sort of struggled internally last night as a I don't know congressional traditionalist or maybe having some nostalgia. My first reaction was very political speech and, unlike a lot of other state of the unions, I was like this is his convention speech. And as the night went on I was also like this is 2024. This is the reality we live in now in the state of our politics. So kind of good for him, good move to get those early viewers hit those key points before we get into the economy and tax issues and what's coming up in the agenda.
Speaker 3:It's an inherently political ritual Right. So I think it made sense from a strategy standpoint to drop the pretense and try and say well, we're going to be very apolitical here.
Speaker 3:I think you had to, especially given the expectations. Like you had to embrace the fact that this was going to be a very political moment. I think the traditionalist in me as well like having worked up there on the Hill. I hate that it's become this circus where people are interrupting and, you know, trying to have a political colloquy, a chaotic political colloquy, back and forth.
Speaker 1:I mean a decade ago. We talked about Joe Walsh and you lie for weeks.
Speaker 3:Joe Walsh, is different If Joe Walsh was there.
Speaker 1:Joe Wilson Rep. Joe Wilson from South Carolina, but it didn't happen five times last night.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we are never going back. Yeah, and the long shadow of Congressman Joe Wilson will be with us forever, every single state of the union. From here on out. We'll have some level of interruption there because, you know, we're just at that stage now where the people know that it's a concentrated moment to grab attention for themselves, and they will. And, like you know, the simple fact that they were all taking selfies on the way in also demonstrates that the process and the pageantry of the entrance of the leader of the free world to deliver the speech is like it's all gone.
Speaker 2:I love that part of it you know if you know, you know.
Speaker 1:but to get those seats you got to be there like hours in advance, like members are getting in there in the morning, and it's Marjorie Dale Green and others that like want that click big crowd yeah it quick way crowd. You're right yeah.
Speaker 2:Kevin, you bring up an interesting point. So you know you said earlier that this doesn't move the needle for the president, right, that this has just become such an expected speech. There was no news, that was broken right Tonight. But do you think it moves the needle for anybody else? I'm thinking about Joe Wilson. Did it move the needle for him and in sort of his, his star power? Did it move the needle for Mike Johnson at all? Did it move the needle for Kamala Harris? It certainly did for Nancy Pelosi when she, you know, ripped up the speech.
Speaker 3:No, no and no and no. But let me explain because I think it's a good question, because you know, I think it worked for Joe Wilson. Only if you adapt the idea that there's no such thing as bad press Now go. If we go back to that time, I remember getting a call from a friend of mine who was the consultant for Joe Wilson. He's like hey, we need your help and advice. Like they knew that there was some fallout. After that, I mean I had to go up there and sort of help my friend and Congress from Joe Wilson sort of manage that fallout back then.
Speaker 3:So it was not necessarily in that positive. I think today all of these folks are convinced that it's in that positive because they only care about the world of conservative media and the feedback loop that they get on social media from the most vocal, animated parts of the base. But the bigger picture on this, like does this move the needle for anybody? Like the data shows that presidents only get maybe a two point bump out of this and that it's fleeting. And the bigger challenge, I think, is you have this ritual that everybody hypes for two days beforehand and they hype all day, the day of, and then it happens, but it washes out of the news cycle very quickly in the next 48 hours.
Speaker 3:I think this was particularly an issue with Trump, because Trump did this to himself Like he'd have a great speech and everybody like boy, he really stuck to the script and this was remember Van Jones's like famous comical statement about like he became president tonight, right, and then what?
Speaker 3:Like maybe 12 hours later Trump had like invented an entirely new news cycle with a new gaff or new scandal or a new attack, and it was like all of the goodwill of the speech was gone. And I don't think Trump, I don't think Biden necessarily will you know is destined to step on his own news here. But like everybody who said boy, maybe he's not as old as he as we think he is, or boy, he was really together with an on message, sure, for a speech that he had prepared for for the last two weeks. That was on a teleprompter and is pretty much an unfettered sort of opportunity to talk directly to the American people. Let's see him do that twice a week for the next six months, all the way until election day. I don't think it will happen and he'll do something in the next week to reinforce people's concerns about his age and his ability to really execute a you know, a discipline message.
Speaker 1:Can I? Push is the wrong word, but I wanna dig deeper into that question because I agree with you on the substance, and issues Like these are fleeting moments, and especially this year. This isn't an issue or vision for the future kind of campaign, but maybe it's the social media world we live in. It is the biggest audience he'll get again until probably the convention and then the debates. And did he do enough to? Okay, I'm a voter that doesn't pay attention, but I will vote, and all I've heard is the guy can't do anything because he's too old, he can't think straight, he can't move. Wow, I watched him. Clearly that was exaggerated. Does that stick?
Speaker 3:in their mind. Does it stick? No, it's state of the unions are like cotton candy. They melt on contact.
Speaker 3:In this news environment where everything is done in 240 characters on people's smartphones and we live in a 24 second news cycle, not a 24 hour news cycle, so I think the effects of this will largely be gone within the next three days. Here is where it can matter. You look at the large frame that President Biden and the White House put around the 2024 elections and what's at stake. And to Elon's point earlier about, like you know, talking about the economy, bringing up the abortion, ivf issue, those are going. And then also the immigration issue, which I think right now is a huge challenge, a obstacle for the president with many voters, but it's going to make or break whether or not he can, whether or not he can address that.
Speaker 3:We'll make or break whether or not he's reelected in those swing areas around the country where the economy, the abortion issue and the immigration issue will serve as the backdrop for swing voters decisions. So he set the frame very favorably and positively for what he can do over the next all from here, all the way until November. Mckinney execute a performance like he did last night. Two to three times a week, because that's the new cycle that we're in. Two to three times a week, every week All the way to November. I am a huge skeptic on that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and because if that happens, you know if there's a gaffe, the social media environment we live in, the hyperpartisan we live in, that just magnifies it as much, in your opinion, as a state of the. Address, so it erases.
Speaker 3:We're, we're, we're like. There are very few guarantees in politics, but one of the guarantees is that in this election and it could be either candidate, given the age issue for both. We're going to have a wholly blank moment Related to the age question and you will not be sitting there one oh, but he gave such a great state of the union speech back in March, right, it's an essential consideration For anybody making their decision in November well also, even if he does get a two-point bump out of this.
Speaker 2:I mean two points when you're at a 37 low in your approval ratings is is nothing. So he has a. I do agree with you that he has definitely an uphill, has a climb uphill here, and you know Trump has proven that he's a master at manipulating all of those Individual media moments to maximum effect, right even when Trump. So when truth social was down last night, right, he still managed to find a way to To put his message out there and to go galvanize and look, I mean to be.
Speaker 3:To be fair, the political B12 shot here was the way that the President Biden was perceived as Unaffinced and and came off as a fighter to not the necessarily the swing voters, but like the base for Democrat activists right now. That is not really enthusiastic about a Biden campaign. Are you know the Biden, the Biden candidacy? They got what they wanted last night, so that's and that was always a problem, which is like one of the reasons that some of the numbers are so low, is that your, your most vocal activists in the Democratic Party, is just not excited. They probably came out of last night more excited than they were before, and so there is some utility here to the speech and the performance that the president gave yeah, that's a good point and thinking about some other audiences in that same Context.
Speaker 1:You know it probably got Democratic members back Excited about him and I, everybody up there who's a little worried, yeah, a little less worried right and I wonder maybe a question for you, alon Does it change the way the media has been thinking about Biden, like they've have been doing a lot of the framing around the age? Does this erase that?
Speaker 2:maybe not till the next gas, but enough till then yeah, I think there was pretty uniform consensus in the headline. Do you saw the word fiery? You know use quite a bit robust. You know he was Pugelistic, even right. So I think that there was a unified narrative around his performance last night, which I think is probably what the White House wanted. You wanted to come off as a fighter, so I think that's that's probably good for him. But again, I do agree with Kevin is. I just don't think it's gonna necessarily last that long, because he also did make mistakes, by the way, during this year no one's going to Moscow to get their prescription drugs.
Speaker 3:I mean I caught myself right, let's just go Idaho.
Speaker 3:But it happens yeah well, here's the thing, too, that I always ask this from for folks who don't necessarily follow politics. The way we do every single day is you have to look at these questions in the terms of fundamentals and and Abysspherics. And so much with drives, cable news coverage is the atmosphere. So, as you know, I was like referencing everybody's like oh, what a fiery debate and a energized Democratic base. That's really about the atmospherics.
Speaker 3:The fundamentals are he still the age concern is still very, very central to a lot of people's considerations about this president and then the state of their dissatisfaction on the economy, which Elon also referenced earlier. That is still a fundamental issue now. Fed action and macroeconomic indicators are sort of Potentially going to change that over the course of the next couple of months. But just remember this like one of the other fundamentals is that public opinion source to essentially set in by August and there's not much after Labor Day. That's really going to change the trajectory of the of the public as a bit of the public's opinion. Those are probably the things that if I'm a strategist on either of these campaigns, that's what keeps me up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, you know I was reading a Memo, I think a mutual friend of ours, Doug Sosnick, put out Last week. You think of the campaign in those kind of three periods there's sort of this February to June period where you're forming your opinion on the incumbent. You've got the period of the summer with the conventions and then maybe something happens in the debates or topper surprise. But, like to your point, opinions are pretty formed.
Speaker 3:David Axelrod told me this and I had to learn it the hard way. He's like there aren't many ads after Labor Day. They're gonna make a difference. Right, and you know what they did. In March, april, may of 2012, they defined Mitt Romney with lots and lots and lots of ads in lots of swing states.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of my question what is the White House, the campaign, do over the next three months? Did they learn anything about their candidate last night? To, you know, change the way they're kind of approaching things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think first of all they have to recognize that this election is going to come down to about 300,000 voters across five states and in those five states like very defined regions. So Right now they have to go out and think about what the swing vote. What's really driving the swing voters there? They and the your average swing voter right now is like somewhat pessimistic about the state of the economy. Maybe they see some great shoots, but they're just the question on whether a better off four years ago is probably right now we're not working in their favor three years ago.
Speaker 3:They are and they're great right and they're very worried about Immigration and border security. You cannot be dismissive about that, you have to answer it. I think that's the reason that the president finally went to the border. Yeah, because they recognize that.
Speaker 3:But they also know that at the backdrop is going to be if they if you're looking at the average swing voter, which is a suburban woman who is sort of a maybe independent but but very pragmatic on fiscal or very maybe is conservative or pragmatic on fiscal issues but very sort of More progressive on social issues the abortion and IVF issue is going to be at the backdrop of their consideration on which candidate and so focusing on those three issues intently is In those regions is going to be their focus, is gonna be. There is gonna be their focus. And if you think about, like the starters pistol of the general election being the day after Super Tuesday, if you look at the way Trump Courted Haley voters and how Biden courted Haley voters, which is like Trump insulted Haley, yeah right, and like you know, right a size there for staying in as long as she did and by and Biden's like I want to be the president for Republicans, independence and Democrats.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd have to say that you know, in the first couple of days he's got a better he's, or that campaign is more oriented towards winning those voters over right now than Trump is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kevin, the one issue you didn't mention in terms of what's top of mind for swing voters is the idea of democracy, right. So I thought it was interesting and certainly Republicans were, we're you pointed this out that Biden started the state of the union, not talking about our union, but talking about Ukraine, right, and there is a, there is a direct line, you know, to Are our place in the world, how we support our allies, etc. But, you know, does that, does that Play into the swing voter Calculation at all, when they think about? You know, is it Biden, is it Trump? You know Biden tried to draw a very clear distinction between the way that he felt America should engage with its allies and the way that America should conduct, conduct itself here at home. That, you know it was very different from well, I think it's a good question.
Speaker 3:I think it was smart for him to start there because I think he knows the moral dilemma that many Folks are dealing with on the Ukraine issue and the Ukraine funding issue in the Republican Party. Like there's a division inside the Republican Party, like who are we as a party if we can't do this and you have so many far-right conservatives that are resistant to it right now, which is odd given the past devotion to this issue as a key principle of the Republican platform and I think he wanted to drive a little bit of a truck through that the division inside the party.
Speaker 3:And he wanted to. I think he basically wanted to say I know that, you know that you're not doing the right thing, and so did the American public, and I thought that was a, you know, an interesting political gesture for him and it worked in his favor. Does it matter with swing voters? National security, foreign policy, broadly falls into the question of can we achieve stability, can we have American leadership that is going to, is going to guarantee more stability and peace around the globe and harmony around the globe, and so I think in that question it will play into that. That broader question of is how it plays in to the swing voter consideration.
Speaker 3:Democracy though I do not believe it as a motivator, I think the democracy issue, which is, like you know, the January 6 question and the the future of our institutions, I think that plays directly into his most active democratic base For them. They have to have this election refrained with higher stakes involved around the democracy question in order for them to get excited. Because they're not excited about Joe Biden's. You know history as being a a, you know a heart driven progressive, yeah, and so they question that. But if it's a, if it comes down to a very clear choice between Joe Biden, who's going to promise to be a steward of democracy, and what they see as a huge threat from Trump. That's what gets them to turn out on election day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought that the three first issues those two you just discussed and then abortion strung together were just talking to those Haley voters, those suburban moms in those six districts. It's, it's America's leadership January 6, then the chaos, and like you've got to love your country, whether you're on the winning side or losing side, right into women's rights. I mean that was just speaking to that.
Speaker 3:The best way to describe the Haley voter right now as a swing voter is like a conscientious objector. Like they just do not want to subscribe to this, this, this type of Republican view of the world on the issue of smart power, foreign policy, national security yeah, and they're parked in. They're parked in undecided right now and they're going to make or break this election.
Speaker 1:I think yeah. And going back to my question about what the White House learned, I mean I again I saw the best Biden when he was in that back and forth engagement. I would stick him in town hall meetings in all of those suburbs for the next two as long as they were 20 minutes long, right, but like one hour, you know, because the best. Biden is not the news conference, biden in the. You know.
Speaker 2:Rose Garden. But is it also potentially the worst Biden? It is. Right, it's the best and the worst Biden, so I don't know it's the off the script.
Speaker 3:It's off the script and and exposed to the elements. The state of the union is not really exposed to the elements. It's pageantry. It's political pageantry at its highest levels. It's a ritual and you actually get afforded a little bit more of a leeway because of it. I know it's hard and it's difficult and you know and with this Congress nowadays it's not an easy crowd, but very different from these. You know rope line interactions or you know gruel. What I would say is a grueling 50 minute town hall interview where you're exposed to the elements and you do not know what question is coming up and you do not have that speech line written down. So I would be.
Speaker 3:I'd be careful what you wish for, mr D'Angelo? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, speaking of careful what you wish for and maybe antiquated traditions, when, will you know rising stars realize the rebuttal is a terrible idea, oh I mean you guys have been talking about the suburban mom swing voter and clearly Katie Brits rebuttal was an attempt to appeal to that demographic.
Speaker 2:I really wanted to like it. I really did because she is my peer. You know we're the same age, we've got, we both got kids living the minivan life in the suburbs, you know, but it was just overly dramatic overly produced, overly produced, overly rehearsed.
Speaker 1:A roller coaster of emotions.
Speaker 2:I mean every single one, played out in her face, you know yes, over the time it was poorly written.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and these things are collaborative process. I doubt in many ways that she wrote it herself.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But she probably had some good instincts on the topics and how she what she wanted to get across, but I think it came off as poorly written. I also think it had an audience of had two audiences. The first audience was like the Bible study group of Republican women Right and then Donald Trump.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and with those two audiences, I think they had very different reactions and I think they're going to have an even more positive reaction given the backlash, because the sort of Republican antibody effect right which is like to start to defend themselves against the left, will happen. And they there is just some very, very harsh criticism on the left on this and but I think you're look, everybody has said she's a, she's a a. Everybody who knows Katie Brady has said she's an incredible political talent.
Speaker 1:Yes, I've heard great things, yeah.
Speaker 3:She's an extremely adroit lawmaker and dealmaker up on Capitol Hill, like everybody up there knows. She was a chief of staff for Senator Shelby for a really long time. She knows how the system works. So and I think she'll let me she'll get another shot at repurposing her political profile.
Speaker 1:Do you think she's still in the mix, like did she do enough with Trump to still be in that kind of. Vp rising star. Yes, because again.
Speaker 3:We're like talking about the political B12 shot like with the base, the audience of one, yeah. And the and the base. You know there's going to be people inside the Republican party that will say, because of the backlash that she got, will say she needs to be. She needs to be your VP. So I think she had more admirers and has more support in that process now than she did before.
Speaker 2:What did you think of the kitchen? The idea of putting her in the kitchen to deliver the speech? I've seen some criticism of it of you know. Why are you signaling the woman's place in the kitchen even when she's, you know, speaking to the biggest audience in the country, right? But at the same time I did feel like it was very intimate and kind of and kind of folksy. I'm torn on that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got the, and maybe they should have leaned into it more. I got the kitchen table like painting the economy.
Speaker 2:We do, and she was talking about those issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I kind of agree with that strategy. I saw the especially the left kind of go nuts about women in the kitchen, but you know that's probably one audience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think. I think really good instincts, bad execution, I know. I also think that this SNL cold open, which is a guarantee. Yeah, it's a guarantee If I were writing this kid I would have somebody walk behind her and like start going through the fridge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and look at the ice cream in the fridge.
Speaker 3:Look at the ice in the fridge Going through going through, getting ice cream out and a Miller High Life, you know, and just walking out and going. What do you do? Who you talking to? Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I I. The part about it that started to ring, not resonate for me was when she started talking about, you know, the border crisis and the deaths and the violence from her kitchen and that to me felt very discordant. There were other parts where she, you know, kind of hit it and had that folksy feel, but you know, trying to talk about something so serious and literally deadly was felt very yeah.
Speaker 1:Likewise when she went down the road of the Chinese Communist Party being it. Just yeah, you lost that like kitchen table.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the background worked against her in that and again, that's why I think it was poorly written.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, again back to my question. I mean, I don't know why anyone does these rebuttals. I had high hopes for this one, yeah, but I can't remember if she's going to get it.
Speaker 3:I also said if anybody's going to get this. Mark Arubia is going to get it.
Speaker 2:I thought Ken would get it a few years ago.
Speaker 3:The last good one of just to tell you where the Republican Party's gone, christine Todd Whitman in like 1990, whatever I was going to say it was the last 20 years she gave it to the. She gave it to the at the state house in New Jersey and it was live to an audience and it just was a perfect sort of contrast. That might be the last good one that I remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think if I was advising a member and they call Bob McDonnell.
Speaker 3:Bob McDonnell too, in like 20, say don't take that call.
Speaker 1:Well, great. Well, we'll wrap it up there and we'll. We'll keep an eye on the polls and everything and we'll see if this has always worked or didn't work, and how antiquated the state of the union might or may not be. But, kevin, thanks for joining us Great to be with you.
Speaker 2:Great. And to our listeners, remember that you can like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on X at Penta GRP and on LinkedIn at Penta Group. As always, thanks for listening to what's At State.